Does redo run on Windows?
redo works fine in Windows Services for Linux (WSL) on Windows 10. You might consider that to be "real" Windows, or not. If you use it, it runs more or less like it does on Linux. WSL is considerably slower than native Linux, so there is definitely room for speed improvements.
If I were going to port redo to Windows in a "native" way, I might grab the source code to a posix shell (like the one in MSYS) and link it directly into redo.
One interesting project that has appeared recently is busybox-w32 (https://github.com/pclouds/busybox-w32). It's a port of busybox to win32 that includes a mostly POSIX shell (ash) and a bunch of standard Unix utilities. This might be enough to get your redo scripts working on a win32 platform without having to install a bunch of stuff. But all of this needs more experimentation.
Can a *.do file itself be generated as part of the build process?
Yes and no. Kind of. Redo doesn't stop you from doing this, and it will use a .do file if you generate one. However, you have to do the steps in the right order if you want this to work. For example, this should work fine:
redo-ifchange default.o.do redo-ifchange foo.o
You've told redo to generate
default.o.do (presumably using a
script like default.do.do), and then you've told redo to generate
When it considers how to build
foo.o, it will look for a .do file, and
default.o.do, so it'll run it. Great.
Some people would like us to go a step further, and automatically look for rules that will help produce default.o.do. That is, you might want to just write this:
redo-ifchange foo.o bar.o
and then expect that, implicitly, redo will know it needs to look for
default.o.do, and if
default.o.do doesn't exist yet, it should look for
default.do.do, and so on.
The problem with this idea is... where does it end? If there's no
default.o.do, so we look for a
default.do.do, what if that doesn't exist
either? Perhaps there's a
default.do.do.do for generating
files? And so on. You'd have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere.
Anyway, unlike make, redo does not implicitly generate files. It only generates a given file if you redo-ifchange that file first, from one of your other .do scripts. This gets avoids magical behaviour, but makes it quite tricky to auto-generate .do files. See the next question for a workaround.
What can I do instead of auto-generating *.do files?
When people ask about auto-generating .do files, they usually mean one of two things:
They want to create a new directory and auto-populate it with .do files copied from somewhere.
- This can be solved in various ways. For example, you might make a
default.dofile in the new directory; this will match all possible targets. You can then use the sh "source" operator (.) and
redo-whichdoto pull the "real" rules from elsewhere. An example of .do file delegation can be found in the wvstreams project.
- This can be solved in various ways. For example, you might make a trivial toplevel
They want to generate, eg.
default.o.dobased on auto-detected compiler settings, in order to support different brands of compilers, or different architectures, etc.
The trick here is not to generate
default.o.do, but rather to generate another script instead. For example, you could have a
compile.dothat generates a script called
default.o.dowould simply be hard coded to something like
./compile $2 $3. The wvstreams project also has an example of compile.do.
The advantage of separating out into separate default.o.do and compile scripts is that you can put all your system-dependent conditionals into compile.do, so they run only once and choose the "right" compile command. Then, for each file, you can simply run that command. If This kind of micro-optimization doesn't appeal to you, then there's no shame in just putting all the logic directly into
How does redo store dependencies?
At the toplevel of your project, redo creates a directory
.redo. That directory contains a sqlite3 database
with dependency information.
The format of the
.redo directory is undocumented because
it may change at any time. It will likely turn out that we
can do something simpler than sqlite3. If you really need to make a
tool that pokes around in there, please ask on the mailing
list if we can standardize something for you.
Unfortunately, the design of having a single .redo directory at the toplevel of a project has proven problematic: what exactly is the "top level" of a "project"? If your project is a subdirectory of another project that then switches to redo, should the .redo directory move up a level in the hierarchy when that happens? And so on. Eventually, we will probably migrate to a system where there is one .redo directory per target directory. This avoids all kinds of problems with symlinks, directory renames nested projects, and so on.
Isn't using sqlite3 overkill? And un-djb-ish?
Well, yes. Sort of. I think people underestimate how "lite" sqlite really is:
root root 573376 2010-10-20 09:55 /usr/lib/libsqlite3.so.0.8.6
573k for a complete and very fast and transactional SQL database. For comparison, libdb is:
root root 1256548 2008-09-13 03:23 /usr/lib/libdb-4.6.so
...more than twice as big, and it doesn't even have an SQL parser in it! Or if you want to be really horrified:
root root 1995612 2009-02-03 13:54 /usr/lib/libmysqlclient.so.15.0.0
The mysql client library is two megs, and it doesn't even have a database in it! People who think SQL databases are automatically bloated and gross have not yet actually experienced the joys of sqlite. SQL has a well-deserved bad reputation, but sqlite is another story entirely. It's excellent, and much simpler and better written than you'd expect.
Still, it's not very "djbish" to use a general-purpose database, especially one that has a SQL parser in it. (One of the great things about redo's design is that it doesn't ever need to parse anything, so embedding a whole SQL parser is a bit embarrassing.)
I'm pretty sure djb never would have done it that way. However, I don't think we can reach the performance we want with dependency/build/lock information stored in plain text files; among other things, that results in too much fstat/open activity, which is slow in general, and even slower if you want to run on Windows. That leads us to a binary database. And example of the kind of structure we need is the one used by ninja which is very simple, fast, and efficient.
Most of the state database stuff has been isolated in state.py. If you're feeling brave, you can try to implement your own better state database, with or without sqlite.
What hash algorithm does redo-stamp use?
It's intentionally undocumented because you shouldn't need to care and it might change at any time. But trust me, it's not the slow part of your build, and you'll never accidentally get a hash collision.
Why not always use checksum-based dependencies instead of timestamps?
Some build systems keep a checksum of target files and rebuild dependents only when the target changes. This is appealing in some cases; for example, with ./configure generating config.h, it could just go ahead and generate config.h; the build system would be smart enough to rebuild or not rebuild dependencies automatically. This keeps build scripts simple and gets rid of the need for people to re-implement file comparison over and over in every project or for multiple files in the same project.
There are disadvantages to using checksums for everything automatically, however:
Building stuff unnecessarily is much less dangerous than not building stuff that should be built. Checksums aren't perfect (think of zero-byte output files); using checksums will cause more builds to be skipped by default, which is very dangerous.
It makes it hard to force things to rebuild when you know you absolutely want that. (With timestamps, you can just
touch filenameto rebuild everything that depends on
Targets that are just used for aggregation (ie. they don't produce any output of their own) would always have the same checksum - the checksum of a zero-byte file - which causes confusing results.
Calculating checksums for every output file adds time to the build, even if you don't need that feature.
Building stuff unnecessarily and then stamping it is much slower than just not building it in the first place, so for almost every use of redo-stamp, it's not the right solution anyway.
To steal a line from the Zen of Python: explicit is better than implicit. Making people think about when they're using the stamp feature - knowing that it's slow and a little annoying to do - will help people design better build scripts that depend on this feature as little as possible.
djb's (as yet unreleased) version of redo doesn't implement checksums, so doing that would produce an incompatible implementation. With redo-stamp and redo-always being separate programs, you can simply choose not to use them if you want to keep maximum compatibility for the future.
Bonus: the redo-stamp algorithm is interchangeable. You don't have to stamp the target file or the source files or anything in particular; you can stamp any data you want, including the output of
lsor the content of a web page. We could never have made things like that implicit anyway, so some form of explicit redo-stamp would always have been needed, and then we'd have to explain when to use the explicit one and when to use the implicit one.
Thus, we made the decision to only use checksums for
targets that explicitly call
redo-stamp (see previous
I suggest actually trying it out to see how it feels for you. For myself, before there was redo-stamp and redo-always, a few types of problems (in particular, depending on a list of which files exist and which don't) were really annoying, and I definitely felt it. Adding redo-stamp and redo-always work the way they do made the pain disappear, so I stopped changing things.
A longer and even more detailed explanation of timestamp vs checksum-based build dependencies can be found in mtime comparison considered harmful.
Why doesn't redo by default print the commands as they are run?
make prints the commands it runs as it runs them. redo doesn't, although
you can get this behaviour with
redo -v or
(The difference between -v and -x is the same as it is in
sh... because we simply forward those options onward to sh
as it runs your .do script.)
The main reason we don't do this by default is that the commands get pretty long winded (a compiler command line might be multiple lines of repeated gibberish) and, on large projects, it's hard to actually see the progress of the overall build. Thus, make users often work hard to have make hide the command output in order to make the log "more readable."
The reduced output is a pain with make, however, because if there's ever a problem, you're left wondering exactly what commands were run at what time, and you often have to go editing the Makefile in order to figure it out.
With redo, it's much less of a problem. By default, redo produces output that looks like this:
$ redo t redo t/all redo t/hello redo t/LD redo t/hello.o redo t/CC redo t/yellow redo t/yellow.o redo t/bellow redo t/c redo t/c.c redo t/c.c.c redo t/c.c.c.b redo t/c.c.c.b.b redo t/d
The indentation indicates the level of recursion (deeper levels are dependencies of earlier levels). The repeated word "redo" down the left column looks strange, but it's there for a reason, and the reason is this: you can cut-and-paste a line from the build script and rerun it directly.
$ redo t/c redo t/c redo t/c.c redo t/c.c.c redo t/c.c.c.b redo t/c.c.c.b.b
So if you ever want to debug what happened at a particular step, you can choose to run only that step in verbose mode:
$ redo t/c.c.c.b.b -x redo t/c.c.c.b.b * sh -ex default.b.do c.c.c.b .b c.c.c.b.b.redo2.tmp + redo-ifchange c.c.c.b.b.a + echo a-to-b + cat c.c.c.b.b.a + ./sleep 1.1 redo t/c.c.c.b.b (done)
If you're using an autobuilder or something that logs build results for future examination, you should probably set it to always run redo with the -x option.
How fast is redo compared to make?
FIXME: The current version of redo is written in python and has not been optimized. So right now, it's usually a bit slower. Not too embarrassingly slower, though, and the slowness mostly only strikes when you're building a project from scratch.
For incrementally building only the changed parts of the project, redo can be much faster than make, because it can check all the dependencies up front and doesn't need to repeatedly parse and re-parse the Makefile (as recursive make needs to do).
redo's sqlite3-based dependency database is very fast (and it would be even faster if we rewrite redo in C instead of python). Better still, it would be possible to write an inotify daemon that can update the dependency database in real time; if you're running the daemon, you can run 'redo' from the toplevel and if your build is clean, it could return instantly, no matter how many dependencies you have.
On my machine, redo can currently check about 10,000 dependencies per second. As an example, a program that depends on every single .c or .h file in the Linux kernel 2.6.36 repo (about 36000 files) can be checked in about 4 seconds.
Rewritten in C, dependency checking would probably go about 10 times faster still.
This probably isn't too hard; the design of redo is so simple that it should be easy to write in any language. It's just even easier in python, which was good for writing the prototype and debugging the parallelism and locking rules.
Most of the slowness at the moment is because redo-ifchange (and also sh itself) need to be fork'd and exec'd over and over during the build process.
As a point of reference, on my computer, I can fork-exec redo-ifchange.py about 87 times per second; an empty python program, about 100 times per second; an empty C program, about 1000 times per second; an empty make, about 300 times per second. So if I could compile 87 files per second with gcc, which I can't because gcc is slower than that, then python overhead would be 50%. Since gcc is slower than that, python overhead is generally much less - more like 10%.
Also, if you're using redo -j on a multicore machine, all the python forking happens in parallel with everything else, so that's 87 per second per core. Nevertheless, that's still slower than make and should be fixed.
(On the other hand, all this measurement is confounded because redo's more fine-grained dependencies mean you can have more parallelism. So if you have a lot of CPU cores, redo might build faster than make just because it makes better use of them.)